tqm.list Weekly Digest Subject: Answers: ISO9000, Taylor and Quality Awards Subject: Recognition Systems Subject: Management's Five Deadly Diseases Subject: Re: Back to the Issues Subject: Re: Back to the Issues Subject: Training Improvements ---------------------------------------- From: gomezf@GOIHERRI.rtsg.mot.com (gomezf) Subject: Answers: ISO9000, Taylor and Quality Awards Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:21:35 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text Dear All yy Unfortunately the most interesting discussion on \`ISO 9000, Talyorism and Quality Awards\' seems to have come to an end already. Below I have summarised the answers to the questions I posted on the discussion list about two weeks ago. I would like to thank everyone who took part in the discussion for their comments. Lex van den Hondel Until 27-6: gomezf@GOIHERRI.rtsg.mot.com After that: lex@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The QUESTIONS were: -Is ISO 9000 a Taylorist approach ? -Are the MBNQA criterea out of date ? -Is the EQA based on fundamentally differnt criterea than the Baldridge ? -Is the importance of ISO 9000 fo European Business declining ? These are the ANSWERS: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1- Is ISO 9000 a Taylorist approach ? David Yoest: \`ISO 9000 does come from Taylor philosophy of seperating planning from exe cution. ISO 9000 is an extensive Quality Control and Quality Assurance system which is based on the fact that the worker is not in a state of self control. Dr. Joseph Juran has written quite a bit on Frederick Taylor and his effect on management.\' Gotschal:\' Yes and no. It all depends on interpretation. For example, th standard lists receiving inspection as an item, however, it is just one way to verify supplier product. We choose to audit the suppliers at their facility and verify good processes are in place making receiving inspection process redundant. More recently the 1994 standards have beefed up documenta tion and added quality planning as a line item. ISO 9000 is NOT a perscription or a recipe, it is a collection of \`things that are important\' and should be part of any decent quality system. The Taylorist approach is a \`how to\'. Ned Hamson: \'ISO9000 is no more Tayloristic than a number of TQM approaches in that itseldom looks at the work system as a whole, or from a systems point of view. ISO is for the most part simply a documentation of what is, nothing more, nothing less. And it assumes that you have established a rudimentary quality control process.\' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 - Are the MBNQA criterea out of date ? David Yoest: \`The Baldrige award is not out of date and is more relevant today than it was just last year. The recent edition is better honed than even the 1994edition.\' Gotschal:\'The recent change to include financials is a great move. Make nomistake, we are in business to make a profit! It is HOW the profit ismade year after year, decade after decade that is the key. The principles MBNQA are based upon reveal the building blocks of organizations. Leadership, Quality, Processes, Measurements, Human Resources (Training), and, above all, Customer Satisfaction are basic fundamentals without which a company survives by luck. Ned Hamson: \' Is Baldrigecriteria out of date? I hope you don't mean like yesterday's news, hasn't itbeen replaced by some new razzledazzle process. No it is not out of date. But what it mostly is, is a broader list of categories of what is involved in being a successful, but still pre dominately bureaucratic organization that has adopted a positive view towrd customers and employees.\' Micheal C. Flessas:\'Could you \`demonstrate\' how it is that the Baldridge Award is better honed? I really do not see how awardsqua awards are useful. When one company wins what does that do for the moral of other companies? The award does not insure continual improve ment. I think awards are \`intermediate\' steps for those who just cannot distinguish improve ment from competition-and there is a distinction. It's like an Olympic medal winner.Wonderful that one \`wins\' now what about the rest of one's life. So, I think in the long term the Baldridge Award is a nice diversion. What it \`proves\'is that a company won the award by meeting certain criteria within a given period of time-that's about all. Any comments or criticisms are more than welcome.\' Steve Downes:\'I feel you may be missing the intended purpose of the Baldrige. The Baldrige Award provides feedback to a company on where that company stands in relation to its compe tetors as well as others in the companys class. Any company or organization that applies to the Baldrige should be applying to find out where they need improvement. The examiners go thru a lenghty process of reading the application, determining if there is EVIDENCE of a system atic approach to improvement and feedback in the organization. I won't go into the procedure of scoring, consensus, and possible site visits here. Leave it to say that any organization that applies should go into the process looking to improve there organization by getting independ ant feedback about their strenghts and areas for improvement and not to win the award. Any organization that is in it to simply WIN is missing the intent of the process and that is to improve. I do not think that benchmarking and getting independant feedback about your orgainzations processes is an \`Intermediate\' step, if anyhting I feel it is an advanced step. What better way to gain insight into how you are doing, especially from an independant source.\' Micheal C. Flessas:\'Yes, if the point is to get useful feedback to improve a system, then I have no criticisms of such a wish. Obviously it would be ridiculous to be critical of some organiza tion trying to improve itself in the same way it would be ridiculous to shout at a child just learning how to walk. The goal- and this is the point of my last contribution- is not \`winning\' the Baldridge Award. The point is continual improvement is it not? I still think,however, my analogy of the Olympic medalist is apt. So, one wins a prize- this year- now what about the rest of-in this case- the organization's life? I also think it would be useful to show what distinctions exist between the Deming Prize and the Baldridge Award in terms of criteria. Also, and I do not know this to be the case, have there not been prize winners of Quality Awards whose companies were later in economic straits? Another thing which comes to mind: Just because one says something about bench marking and other things doesn't mean the right criteria are being applied. I am not trying to play reductionist or epistemological games but would you mind demonstrating for the- and I include myself in this group-\' not so well versed in QC\' just how the criteria for winning is applied and what is deemed significant and what is not? Yes, you could say\' Go read the crite ria for yourself\' but that is beside the point. I would be interested in your \`take\' on the matter. Thank you for your patience in reading all this. I admit when it comes to these matters I am an ignoramus. Thank you for your patience.( Some of the stuff I have read here does seem to remind me of arguments I had read by some Hellenes several centuries ago regarding the \`Agathon.\'\' David Wilcher:\'I agree up to a point. I believe it all depends on an organizations motives. What are the companies values? After all, the Baldridge, ISO 9000, QS 9000, NADCAP, Etc. are just tools; vehicles to get us moving in the right direction down the path of continuous improvement. You ask what next? Well, either continue using the same tool to improve (irre gardless of any awards), or use another tool (ISO, etc.)\' David Yoest:\'The Baldrige Award has been won by no more than twenty companies in its life. Over 1,000,000 copies of the criteri have been mailed. State award progrms have been esta lished in probably over twenty states. The Baldrige criteria are being used in this country as a odel for continuous improvement. Your comments on award chasing are valid, but most com panies who apply Baldrige don't apply for the award. They use it for self assessment and ide tifying areas that the organization needs to improve. Yes, some companies have not done well in the marketplace after winning the award. The Baldrige award does not guarantee success, it only indicates a well managed company, not a well led one or lucky one. Markets dissappear, and products become obsolete.\' Lex v.d.Hondel:\'the National Institute of Standards and Technology studied the stock prices of 11 publicly traded companies that won the Malcomb Baldridge National Quality Award from 1988 through 1993, andassumed an equal investment in each company when it won the Baldridge, vs. an equal investment in the S&P 500-stock index. The Baldridge portfolio rose 92% through the end of 1993, vs. a 33% gain in the S&P 500 index. This implies that Bladridge companies have done very well over the last few years. I am curi ous whether likely data about ISO9000 companies exist....\' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 - Is the EQA based on fundamentally differnt criterea than the Baldridge ? Ned Hamson: \'The EQA is based upon the MBNQA and then adds a few categories. So I don't understand the question. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 - Is the importance of ISO 9000 fo European Business declining ? David Yoest: \`ISO 9000 may be loosing its relevance to the European community since many organizations in many countries are now successfully completing the registration process. The use of the tool as a restrictive measure to limit foreign imports is loosing its effectiveness.\' gotschal:\' Actually, if you think about it, ISO 9000 was a brilliant way to induce all of Europe's suppliers to raise their standard of quality and hence the quality of all products to Europe! So what if all the companies can now meet ISO. If they do, then they have docu mented quality systems by which they can improve their processes and make better product for less money. Besides, as time goes on, the ISO standard will be changed to become more challenging. For example, the 1994 standard mandates documentation of quality activities instead of hints at it.\' Ned Hamson: \'Is ISO9000 becoming less important in Europe? Yes and no. No, because it will form the backbone of each country standard applied to large groupings of like industries. I am referring to European states or industries following the example of the US automaker's QS9000 and the proposed Japanese software standard. Yes it will become somewhat less important as people and enterprizes realize that it is no magic elixir and that they still have to to the hard work of understanding their market and cus tomers, think about themselves in a systemic way, and address their associates (employees) as creative adults, and don't run for the cut expenses/value/quailty axe at the least drop of a stock's price or the gleam in the eye of an investor who doesn't care where the short term increase in stock value comes from.\' --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:57:07 -0400 From: Bosk@aol.com Subject: Recognition Systems TO: TQM List FR: Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) RE: Recognition Systems Please Help Me!!! I am looking for information on recognition systems; whether it be a reference to an article previously written or something from your own experience. If it should be from your own experiences, please leave your e-mail or v-phone # so I may contact you if I have questions. Our company is very diversified and has many facilities around the world. All responses are welcome; because due to the diversification and cultural differences between our facilities, more than one may be applicable. To give you a little background...our company is a manufacturing based operation, is publicly traded on the NYSE and typically operates in the "good ole boy" mentality. Our greatest strength is that our business is operated utilizing common sense as the backbone. I have already received info from Karen Kelly at Tellabs in Texas...they have a heck of a program going on there. Continuously Improving, Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 16:22:40 -0400 From: Bosk@aol.com Subject: Management's Five Deadly Diseases TO: TQM List FR: Bob George (Bosk@AL.COM) RE: Management's Five Deadly Diseases I am looking for info on one of Deming's five diseases. It is the one discussing appraisal systems. Does anyone have any idea where I could look for an in depth discussion on Deming's thoughts and reasonings behind this deadly disease. I know the basic jist of the thought process Deming had, but would like to ensure my thoughts are in line with his. Or if you have the info and could send it to me E-Mail, that would even be better. Continuously Improving, Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) ---------------------------------------- Date: 26 Jun 1995 11:26:11 MDT From: "DON DENIER (DDZ) - 6" Subject: Re: Back to the Issues Bob George's question regarding measurement for teams--i.e., performance appraisal -- seems to mix two issues; measurement and leadership. The concern that I hold with performance appraisals is that they seem to rate one person in comparison to another, rather than to a standard. As one of my past managers put it, "It's like a ladder, only one person can be on each rung. There will be one person at the top, one at the bottom and everyone else in between." This form of appraisal causes people to compete for assignments, visibility, and salary increases without regard for whether the job got done. This competition most often undermines teamwork and results in ineffective operations. Competing against a standard where everyone can be a winner fosters teamwork and supports innovation. We certainly need measurements to determine effectiveness; but we also need leadership that inspires innovation and team performance. The manager's role is to deal with the numbers; the leader's role is to inspire through vision and commitment. There is a need for both. ...and for measurements that reinforce the ultimate objective of the team. Comment.....? Don Denier, ddz@inel.gov - 208 526-2207 Idaho National Engineering Laboratory *** Reply to note of 06/17/95 20:36 To: LIST4 --INELMAIL LIST Subject: Re: Back to the Issues TO: TQM List FR: Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) In a message dated 95-06-13 08:18:55 EDT, you write: > * any kind of measurement--i.e., performance appraisal--creates more bad >than good. > > I'd appreciate hearing from other members of the list. My >own experience is that if we want teams to succeed, managers must >set up teams for success. These and a some other practices are >simply necessary. All of our teams have measurements. These measurements are sometimes decided by the team or are selected by the management group. If the team does not have a direct measure to follow, their is an indirect one already established in the facility by the management group (Plant Wide indicators). Regardless of the type of project the team is working on, you can not determine if you are getting better unless you monitor the data. If you do not use data to help support what you are doing, we might as well go back to the old way of doing things....the boss in the corner office leading the charge with both guns a-blazin' right from the hip. Comments and concerns welcome Continuously Improving, Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) ---------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 16:22:43 -0400 From: Bosk@aol.com Subject: Training Improvements TO: TQM List FR: Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) RE: Training Improvements I am currently in the position of training people in the skills of Continuous Improvement. The people that I train are in the position of Facilitator. The definition of Facilitator in our company is a person that is responsible for all CI training at the individual facility they represent. I currently teach them Group Dynamics, Basic CI Tools, and share with them the vision of the corporate office and why we are embarking on the CI Journey. Does anyone have some insight on other areas that training would be helpful in? I am in the position to modify the materials and approach that I am currently using to get the most benefit out of the training procedure. Thanks, Continuously Improving, Bob George (Bosk@AOL.COM) ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- End of Digest Provided by the Department of Industrial Engineering, Clemson University Archive files also available by gopher and www at deming.eng.clemson.edu Comments to list@deming.eng.clemson.edu